IEC / TC64 Low - voltage Electrical Installations Technical International

Standard Workshop Was Held in Beijing

— Exclusive Special Interview with Chairman of IEC / TC64 Etienne Tison by Building Electricity

 

 

    2014年4月22日，由中国建筑学会建筑电气分会主办，欧盟商会低压电气项目组协办的“IEC / TC64建筑物电气国际标准技术交流会”在北京召开。会议特别邀请了国际电工委员会第64技术委员会（IEC / TC64）主席Etienne Tison，就IEC / TC64技术委员会的工作内容、IEC 60364标准体系和建筑电气设计的一些热点问题，与到会的中国专家进行了广泛和深入的交流。

会前本社对Etienne Tison先生进行了独家专访，吕立主编就行业内大家关注的建筑电气标准体系问题采访了Tison主席。

 

建筑电气：很高兴再次见到Tison先生！2011年我们建筑电气杂志社在IEC / TC64北京全体会议期间对Tison先生的专访，在行业内受到关注，之后您在我们期刊上发表的文章“低压电气装置的电能效率”也被很多读者重视。

Building Electricity：Mr. Tison, glad to see you again！You know, our interview with you during IEC / TC64 Beijing plenary session in 2011 drew much attention in the industry，and your article，Electrical Energy Efficiency within Low?鄄voltage Electrical Installations，later published in our periodical was also very popular with a great many of readers.

主席：谢谢！

Mr. Tison：谢 ~ 谢 ~

1 建筑电气：今天，了解到Tison先生要和中国电气专家探讨建筑电气设计技术和国际标准体系。我们知道主席先生长期从事技术标准工作，对欧美的标准体系有透彻的了解，近年也跟中国标准和中国标准化专家接触，对中国的技术标准有一定的了解。随着中国参与对接国际标准组织的不断加强，近些年有一批IEC的标准被中国采标直接应用。我们知道中外标准体系是有较大差异的，请问主席先生在和中国标准化工作的交流和衔接过程中有怎样的观察、感觉和思考，并且您认为还有哪些问题需要我们中国标准化专家重视或者是注意？

Building Electricity：Today I’ve learnt that Mr. Tison is discussing with Chinese experts the building electricity design technologies and international standard system. We know that Mr. President has been long dedicated to the work of technical standards，and has extensive knowledge on European and American standard systems. In recent years，you’ve also made contacts with Chinese standardization experts in regard of Chinese standards，and had a certain understanding on technological standards of China. As China has been more and more connected with International Standards Organization，a number of IEC standards have been quoted or applied directly by China in recent years. There’s huge difference between the standard systems of China and other countries. So Mr. President，what are your observation，feeling and thinking in your communication and interaction with Chinese standardization，and what problems do you think we should pay attention to？

主席：首先我认为，如果将欧洲的情况 —— 包括法国、德国和英国 —— 与中国比较的话，标准化体系有所不同。在我看来，中国有许多不同的机构或组织参与标准化，而欧洲各国都只有一个组织负责这类事务。法国是法国标准化协会（AFNOR），英国是欧盟与英国共同标准（BS EN），德国则是德国标准化学会（DIN），等等。所以欧洲的情况似乎更简单一些。而在中国，有一套与IEC相对应的建筑电气TC 205委员会国标，还有另外一套真正得以实施的政府的建设部体系，所以体制有些不同。如果我现在来进行比较的话，上述中国的体系实在过于复杂。从国际的视角来讲，我认为我们需要更多听取中国的声音。中国是一个大国，也是IEC的正式永久成员，但就现在的情况来看，我负责的TC64就并未听到太多来自中国的声音。我需要接收更多来自中国的信息，以便中国的需要能更多地影响IEC。IEC 60364国际标准是基于国际共识针对全球制定的，但现在中国几乎没有参与到这个共识之中，因为欧洲专家目前是主流。我们有日本的专家，美国的专家，同时有一些中国的专家，但并不像我们期望的那么多，所以我们真的需要看到中国更多地参与到IEC 60364中来。我知道中国参与了很多标准委员会，我们也在某些领域听到了他们的建议，但正如我所说的，在我们这里并非如此。

Mr. Tison：My first feeling is that if I compare what we are doing in Europe，not only in France but in Germany or in UK，and what is done here in China，the standardization systems are a bit different. It seems to me that in China you have a lot of different institutes or organizations dealing with standardization. In Europe，in each country of Europe we have one organization in charge of them. In France it is AFNOR；in UK it is BS EN；in Germany it is DIN, etc. So it seems to be a little bit simpler in Europe. In China，for the wiring systems you have of course the Chinese mirror committee，TC 205，which is the mirror committee of IEC；and you have also the governmental organization who is developing standards which are really implemented in the country. So the systems are a little bit different. If now I try to compare the different systems above said，it seems to me they are really different. But from an international point of view，I think that we need to hear more of the Chinese voice than today. China is a big country；China is a permanent member of IEC. But for the wiring rules，for TC64，the committee which I chair，I don’t hear too much of the Chinese voice. I need to receive more inputs from China in order that the IEC wiring rules may be more influenced by the Chinese need. IEC 60364，the international wiring rules，is developed for the world based on consensus. But today the consensus is outside of China，because European experts are really numerous. We have Japanese experts，we have American experts，we have some Chinese experts，but not as many as we could expect，so really we need to see China more involved in the IEC / TC64. I know that China is already much more involved in other committees and we hear the voice of China in some of the fields，but not in the wiring rules. That’s my first feeling about it.

  

  

建筑电气：这需要我们建筑电气标准化工作的专家们注意、重视，并且继续努力。

Building Electricity：It requires the notice and focused attention, and further effort of our building electricity standardization experts.

主席：绝对应该这样。我知道中国在许多国际领域已经是主席或秘书处，有相当的话语权，有很多专家参与到国际标准化工作中来，这绝对是正确的，但在TC64的参与程度仍然较低。

Mr. Tison：Absolutely，it should. I know China is making a big effort towards IEC. China is becoming more and more involved in the international arena and that China now holds some chairmanships，holds some secretariats，they send out a lot of experts，which is absolutely correct and great. But in TC64，still some effort is to be done.

建筑电气：这个我们作为媒体可以做一些呼吁。

Building Electricity：As a professional media，Building Electricity may call for some attention to this matter.

2 建筑电气：上周在住建部电气标委会2014年的年会上，住建部标准定额司领导提到中国工程建设标准体系需要改革。标准体系改革其实是很大一件事情，从我在会上的感觉，力度不小，这不仅仅是建筑电气行业，而是覆盖到整个中国的标准架构体系。会上我们建筑电气界标准化工作的专家也纷纷发表意见，其中有专家建议效仿欧美，给中国标准体系“瘦身”。我想请问主席先生对“瘦身”的看法，以及您眼中中国现有的标准体系的可取之处？

Building Electricity：Last week, during the 2014 annual meeting of Electrical Standardization Technical Committee of the Ministry of Housing and Urban - Rural Development of the People’s Republic of China，the leaders of Standards & Quotas Department spoke of the revolution that is needed in Chinese engineering construction standards system. This is a big issue. During the meeting，I felt that the revolution would be extensive and covering the entire Chinese standard system rather than just building electricity industry. At that time，experts from the field of building electricity standardization also expressed their opinions. Some suggested borrowing the thought from Europe and America in simplifying the standard system of China. So Mr. President，what is your opinion on this simplification，or do you think there’s any redeeming feature in Chinese standard system？

主席：如果说中国的规范是否适应中国市场，这并不是我想说的重点。但我知道当今有两种主要的规范理念，一种是IEC规范的理念，另一种是例如美国规范的理念。美国的规范即NEC国家电气规范，以现有最先进的技术为基础。但如今技术更新很快，所以他们必须紧随技术的步伐进行更新，他们每3年修订一次规范，不断跟随新技术的产生而改变，从而必须永久性地对电气承包商进行培训，因为规范需要普及到数以百万计的承包商中，导致难以落实培训且难以频繁与相关人员进行交流。另一方面，IEC试图不与技术的连接过于紧密，因此IEC 60364只是尝试提出技术应当达到的目标。我们不想引入任何强制性的要求。我们试图给出安全、供电连续性、灵活性等方面的目标。这样我们可以避免频繁修改IEC 60364，这样，我们给了各国足够的时间来了解我们的文件，根据各国的实际情况实施，并在承包商当中普及。我不知道中国采用的是哪种理念，但理念主要就是这两种，可以选择。如果中国想采用与美国相似的理念，就意味着必须频繁修改规范，并要长期对电气承包商进行规范培训，这就需要花很多时间、精力和金钱。

Mr. Tison：When you say if the Chinese code is suitable for the Chinese market，that is not my point. But I know that in the world there are two major philosophies for the wiring codes，the one adopted by IEC and the one adopted for instance by the US. The US code，for us it’s the NEC national electrical code. The US code is based on the existing technology — the state of the art of todays. But the technology evolves very quickly nowadays. So they have to evolve the NEC as soon as the technology evolves. So they revise the essence of NEC every three years. But by revising the national electrical code every three years just to follow the breeding of the technologies，they have to train the electrical contractors almost permanently，because the wiring code is addressed to millions of electrical contractors and it is difficult to educate，to communicate with those people very frequently. On the other way，in IEC we tried not to be too much linked to the technology，so IEC 60364 tries at least to propose objectives to be reached by the technology. So we don’t want to introduce any peremptory requirement at all. We try to give objective in terms of safety，in terms of continuity of service，in terms of flexibility，things like these. By doing such we can avoid to revise the IEC 60364 so frequently and in that case，we give time to the countries to understand our document and to implement it on the national bases and to educate the contractors. So I don’t know what would be the philosophy adopted by China，but there are these two major philosophies，so if they want to adopt the philosophy comparable to US，it the means that they have to revise very frequently the code and to educate permanently the electrical contractors，which takes time, money and energy.

建筑电气：这个信息很有意思，标准体系的制定者一定要先清楚我们想要什么。

Building Electricity：This is interesting informa tion. The people who established the standard system should know exactly what we want in the first place.

主席：我并不是说一种理念优于另一种，它们是两种不同的理念，都有各自的优缺点。如果我们按照美国NEC的理念，就必须不断修改，这就存在培训承包商的问题。但这样我们可以向承包商提供易于理解的要求，便于他们实施。只要你按照NEC标准做，就肯定安全，社会印象也很好，但就需要尽快不断做修订。而另一方面，如果你按照IEC的理念，就要根据各国自身的经验在某些地区或全国范围内实施IEC文件。为了让本国的承包商能够理解IEC文件，专家们需要明白我们为什么提出这样的要求。要这样做的话，中国的专家必须参与到IEC的工作组中来，以了解我们提出这些要求的原因，然后结合中国自身的情况，较快将国际性要求融入到本国的要求中。

Mr. Tison：I am not saying that one philosophy is better than the other. They are two philosophies；that’s it. They are different. The point is that both of the philosophies have advantages and drawbacks. If they follow the US’s philosophies，they have to revise，so they have a problem to educate the contractors. But on the other way，we propose requirements which are every much understandable by the contractors and easy to implement. You do it in this way，and that would be great；that would be safe，with good impressions，perfect；but then you need to reverse quickly. On the other way，if you follow the IEC’s philosophies，the IEC document needs to be adapted locally，nationally，by the national experts in order to be understandable by the national contractors. They need to understand why we have such a requirement and not the other one. So to do so，Chinese experts need to attend the working groups of IEC，to understand why we propose such requirements and then they come back to the national committee in China and they can adapt quickly the international requirements into national requirements.

3 建筑电气：谈谈企业的问题吧。我觉得企业参与技术标准制定所扮演的角色及其话语权，中外差异是很大的，这个您肯定有体会。我知道主席先生本身来自知名企业施耐德，还有我们今天的客串翻译杜佳琳先生，您也代表施耐德参加了住建部的建筑电气标委会的工作。我想请问主席先生对此的看法和建议。我们知道企业主导技术标准的制定，在专业技术程度上毋庸置疑，但怎样保证技术标准的公平公正？另一方面，对优秀企业来讲，它的技术先进性又如何在标准中得到体现和保证？这应该是一个不同侧重点的问题，你们怎么样来把握其中的度？

Building Electricity：Let’s talk about the enterprises. I feel that there’s huge difference between China and foreign countries in aspects of enterprises’ role and right of say in the formulation of technical standards. You must have some deep feelings about this. I know that Mr. President yourself comes from the famous enterprise，Schneider，as well as our guest interpreter today，Mr. Du Jialin. You’ve also participated in the work of Building Electrical Standardization Technical Committee of MOHURD on behalf of Schneider. I want to know Mr. President，what is your opinion on this. We know that enterprises lead the formulation of technical standards. Their expertise is unquestionable，but how can we ensure the justice and equality？On the other hand，for good enterprises，how can we demonstrate and ensure their technical advancement in the standards？This should be a question of different emphasis. How can you strike the balance？

主席：像施耐德和大多数的大公司，标准化是战略的一部分，即开始标准化是市场部署的内容之一，这是第一点。第二点，如果我们再回过头看下IEC，以前IEC和ISO都是将成熟的技术标准化。一旦一个产业有了成熟的产品和技术，我们就针对其制定规范。现在不同了，像是在能源效率、电动汽车和光伏发电等领域，我们制定规范来开拓市场。显然，企业需要参与规范制定，因为这关系到它们的未来。所以使所谓的利益相关者参与到规范制定中来是十分重要的，这些利益相关者包括企业、高校、试验室、设计院，所有利益相关者都需要参与进来。如果不这样，我们就不能考虑到各个方面的需要。规范的制定能反映市场的需求是十分重要的，规范是为一个国家的市场服务的。所以我们要引入所有利益相关者，包括企业，大型或小型企业均是。

Mr. Tison：In Schneider and in most of the big companies，standard decision is part of the strategy，so it means that standard decision is considered as a part of the market deployment. That’s the first one. The second point，if now we have a look back on the IEC：previously，IEC and ISO were standardizing mature technologies. Once the industry had the product and technology and it was mature，then we would standardize it. Nowadays，it is absolutely different. We are talking about energy efficiency，we are talking about electric vehicles，and we are talking about photovoltaics. Those artivities are used in standardization to deploy，to create markets. And obviously，the industry needs to be involved in standard decisions because it is the future for them. So it is really much important to have what we call the stakeholders involve in standard decisions and among the stakeholders we have the industries，we have also the universities，we have the laboratories and we have the design institutes，but all the stakeholders need to be involved in standard decisions，not only one among the others. If not，we do not consider the need of the whole country. It is really important that standard decisions reflect the need of the market；it is at service of the market of one country. So we need to introduce and to include all stakeholders，including industries，big and small industries.

建筑电气：国际化大公司往往技术发展走在前面，这些优秀企业参与标准制定过程中对于自身利益或技术先进性，能不能得到比较好的保证？因为参与方多了，有些东西就需要做出让步或做出一些协调，您怎么来理解这个问题？这是一个必须要面对的事情，大公司可能代表某种先进技术，但不可能也不能以此作为唯一标准，在来自各方声音的权衡或者平衡过程中，这种技术先进性可不可以得到很好的保证？

Building Electricity：So I’d like to ask more about whether the interest or technical advancement of internationally big companies who boast superior technologies can be favorably ensured during their participation in this process of standard formulation. When there are many interested parties，some concession or adjustment need to be made. How do you see this problem？This is an inevitable issue. Big companies may represent certain advanced technologies，but they cannot be the only standard. Can the technical advancement be well ensured while balancing the voices from all aspects？

主席：这涉及到政策的概括性，政策是以共识为前提的。如果一家公司在一种技术上遥遥领先，其他公司无法企及，就无法达成共识。而如果你拥有一项特殊技术，并使其标准化，当然其他公司就必须要使用该项技术，这就表示该项技术的拥有者要免费向竞争者提供此项技术。所以我们必须要找到各利益相关者之间的一个平衡点。不能过火，也不能过慢，我们必须在共识上前进，这些共识首先应在国家层面进行确定，再以国家项目的形式向IEC提出。然后我们在国际层面进行探讨，再次达成共识，这就是IEC的理念。

Mr. Tison：But that is the generalization of policy；standard decisions are based on consensus. So if a company is really too far in advancement in one technology，the other one would not follow them. If that company proposes to standardize a very advanced technology and the other one would not follow，so there won’t be any consensus. And the second point is that if you hold one specific technology and you standardize that technology，of course the other competitors will be obliged to use that technology. So it means for the owner of that technology it would give it for free to these competitors. So we need absolutely to find the right balance between the various positions of the stakeholders. We cannot go too far；we cannot be too slow；we have to advance with consensus and this consensus needs first to be based on the national level in order to propose a national project to IEC. And then we discuss it at the international level and we need to find another consensus. That is the philosophy of IEC.

4 建筑电气：请问主席先生如何理解强制执行？在中国有很多标准或者标准的部分条款是强制执行的。刚才主席先生也曾提到IEC更多的是给大家建议，强调根据国家或行业的状态来合理地执行标准，甚至是调整标准。对于“强制”，主席先生的感觉是什么？有什么给我们的建议？

Building Electricity：How does Mr. President understand mandatory implementation？In China，there are many mandatory standards or articles of a standard. Mr. President has mentioned that IEC provides more suggestions to contractors. It stresses a kind of reasonable implementation, or even adjustment on the standards，based on the status of a country or an industry. So what’s your opinion about“mandatory implementation”？Do you have any suggestion for us？

主席：TC64所涉及的议题，例如安全方面的问题，IEC中有许多要求就是针对防电击和火灾等安全问题的，其目标人群是对此毫无知识的普通人。所以在许多国家，例如中国、法国、比利时、西班牙，IEC规范是按照国家法律强制执行的，必须照做，别无选择，因为这涉及到安全的问题。那么我们如何检查规范文件是否真正得到实施呢？在法国，我们有独立的公司专门对规范的实施进行随机实际验证；在其他国家，像德国，虽然没有这种独立公司，但他们会对承包商进行认证。如果你想成为承包商，你首先需要通过认证，然后才可以使用相关规范文件进行施工等。这是两种不同的体系。

Mr. Tison：For the wiring rules for instance，there are a lot of safety aspects. Many requirements in IEC 60364 or in the wiring rules are based on protection against electric shock，protection against fire，such safety aspects；and so it is targeted to normal persons who doesn’t know anything about electricity. So in many countries like，maybe in China，like in France，like in Belgium，and like in Spain，the national wiring rules by law are mandatory. They have to be used as such，no other choice. Because in the safety aspect，there is no other choice. Even it is implemented mandatorily by law，it’s one point；the other important point is that how do we check that the document is really implemented. So in France，we have an independent company who verifies physically some electrical installations by random. In other countries，such as Germany，they don’t have this independent company，but they certify the contractors. So if you want to become a contractor，you need first to be certified and then you are allowed to implement and to use the document，and to erect electrical installations. They are two different systems.

建筑电气：时间关系今天只能到这儿，非常感谢主席先生，给中国的建筑电气从业者很重要的信息，希望与主席先生保持专业上的交流，也希望主席先生在中国期间愉快。

Building Electricity：For time’s sake we have to call it a day. Thank you very much for giving such important information for Chinese practitioners in building electricity. I hope we’ll keep on communicating in future. And wish you a good trip in China.

主席：不客气！谢谢您！谢谢！

Mr. Tison：You are welcome！Thank you so much！Thank you！

 

专访IEC TC64主席Etienne Tison英文稿已经受访专家本人确认。

现场翻译：施耐德电气（中国）有限公司标准化经理杜佳琳。

 

建筑电气杂志社

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